Continuing on from the Random Thoughts thread as it's obviously a topic that several people are passionate about, on both sides of the argument.

Here's an interesting study of the correlation between inequality and violent crime that is quite telling, I think; http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resourc ... -crime-web

From random thoughts-
"I think it's acceptable for the majority to be punished because of the actions of a few."

and

"Depriving the rest of the people guns for their own protection feels unethical to me."

I actually argued myself into seeing the other side as the conversation went on. But I still think the limited number of actions by nut jobs should have an effect on the wider gun owning community. But I think it should stop short of making gun ownership illegal. Atleast in the USA

Don't get me wrong.. I think the process of buying a gun is complete shit..

I think the age requirements are too low.. 18 for rifles and shotguns, 21 for handguns doesn't work.. a nice rounded 30 or so across the board works for me..

You should have to take classes on safety and handling and all that before even being able to fill out a background check.. Hell, that would be a easy way to farm more money..

There are more and more points about it..

Banning guns won't solve the problem, to even think that's going to work is naive as can be..

Getting the weapons out of the wrong persons hands are the answer, but that isn't even possible.. kinda like the war on drugs..

Do you honestly think that if someone didn't have access to a firearm and was set on killing someone, that they wouldn't do it with some other form of weapon? They would just use a knife, stick, whoopie cushion..

Even at X amount of shootings per day in this country, there are way more gun owners that didn't shoot anyone..

For the the majority of gun owners to be the one we are discussing, there would be over a million shootings a day..

To ban guns because (as I said) a small percentage attacks fellow man is ludicrous.

If its all about the greater good and the % doesn't matter.. then your argument about knife crime going down doesn't matter.. there is still crime and its for the greater good SL knife should be banned.. same with bats and clubs..

Hell, cars kill people, for the greater good, the have to go as well...



It puts the lotion on its skin!

I think that was pretty well said DrNecropolis..plus maybe some mandatory psycho testing by awesome characters like Tim Roth's in Lie to Me lol just saying

Here in Australia we have VERY tight gun laws. There is just no way that I could buy a gun without having to jump through MANY loopholes, do courses, register with the government, the list goes on. We have VERY few murders administered by gunshot.

Our laws changed after the Port Arthur Massacre. 35 people were killed with 26 injured on 28 April 1996. It was timely, as at the time it was not difficult for one to attain a gun. The population was made to either turn their weapons into the government or apply for a gun license. Gun licenses prohibit licensees from owning many weapons too. You must store your gun in a certain way (even I know how to do this - the bolt must be removed and stored in a different part of the house, with the body etc of the gun stored in a key locked cupboard). Guns may only be used for hunting or for farmers who may need to use them to kill ill livestock etc. Even 'roo shooters and piggers (gross terminology but it is what they are called here) MUST comply. Jail time is a given should such a weapon be found on someone who does not have a current license.

Currently, about 5.2% of Australian adults (765,000 people)[1] own and use firearms for purposes such as hunting, controlling feral animals, collecting, and target shooting. Before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g., Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defence is not accepted as a reason for issuing a license, even though it may be legal under certain circumstances to use a legally held firearm for self-defence.[(excerpt from Wikipedia)

Not unreasonable is it?

Having said that, of course there are guns here that have been attained via the black market. Like anything that has perceived value, guns are now more underground but having such tight laws has prevented deaths here. I have NO doubt about that. None what so ever.

I am a great believer in VERY tight gun laws. We live largely without fear here in Australia, and I honestly believe it is because of our gun reform. There might be one or two suburbs in our WHOLE country that you might lock you car door in while driving. Not in every town/city. In the whole country.

Also, elevating the murderers status to celebrity is a massive mistake. In no way should that person be given such attention. What about the victims? The heros that saved their entire class only to be killed themselves? Do we hear about them? Will we remember their names in ten years time? I dont think so. The media is to blame along with the lack of gun reform for what has happened in Connecticut.

Then we look at the perpetrator. Could he have done the same damage with a knife? No. Not at all. Just look at what happened in China in recent weeks. A knife or ANY other weapon (apart from a bomb) just cannot sustain the same kind of damage that a gun (of any description) can. It is the fact that he could GET a gun that these little children died. At the hands of a monster who was provided with a weapon. A weapon MADE for killing. Once again - could he have killed 26 people with a knife. No. And yet we have lost 26 souls all because there are people out there who think it is a right to have a weapon that can do so much damage.

Lets also think about how guns are 'impersonal' weapons. Versus a different method of killing (via the hands, whether with a knife or other such weapon) which is 'personal'. Guns make is psychologically easier to kill. The killer doesn't have blood physically on their hands. They don't even need to look at the victim to know if they are dead. Whereas killing with hands, well, hate to say it - takes more balls and mass murder on such a grand scale is IMPOSSIBLE with such a personal way of killing. So any argument about knives/bats/clubs/ etc being banned just because guns are is moot. It IS NOT POSSIBLE to kill on such a mass scale with a bat. Or a club. Or a donkey. Come on, let logic win here!

Excuse it all you want. GUNS have NO place in society. None whatsoever. That isnt just my opinion, it is backed up by fact - US has had over 10000 murders via a gun in the last year. Australia? Hate to say it but pretty close to zero. (looking for stats right now)

Is it a right to have a gun? No. Why? Really? You think it is ok to have a GUN? A device made to KILL? Why? If you knew that the probability of others having a gun was very low to zero, would you still feel a need to have a gun? You wouldnt have to defend yourself with a gun if the situation arose, would you? And honestly, have you needed a gun yet to defend yourself? Did you really ever pull your precious weapon because you felt your life was in danger? Sorry, I have no need to have a gun. They repulse me.

Give me a break. Gun control is not the issue. The issue is plain and simple.

Mental health and the access to it.

I have upwards of 5 guns in my house. I don't even really know, even though I am a hunter and am competant with guns. We have them locked up in a gun cabinet, with trigger locks on each while they are secure.

If you have a gun in your house, YOu are responsible for it. If someone steals it and commits a henious crime you are cupable because you did not safely contain your guns. THAT is your responsibility as a gun owner.

No one has the right to tell me how many I am allowed in my home - IF I am am a safe gun owner. I feed my family with my gun. I protect my family with my gun. I am SAFE and RESPO?NSiBLE with my guns.

The problem is access to mental health resources. The issue is access to affordable health care. The issue is not guns.

In China, on the same day, 22 students were attacked with a knife in China. Over 10 assaults a YEAR happen in Chinese Schools. Guns are not an issue, but people still attack these people, probably because mental healh care is not available.

Get with it. Guns don't jump up and attack innocent people. Fucked up people do it. That is the issue, not how many, what kind, and how I got the guns in my house. I am responsible.

Are you?

Well, actually, I think they do since we're talking about a man-made object/invention. Even if you completely ignore any relation to the current debates about safety, it's not something you were born with and thus you don't have a birthright to own one.

Say we all were born with a great big horn stuck out of our foreheads and everyone had to have it amputated because a few people went around jamming people up the ass with them - THAT would suck and you could rightly say that you have a right to keep it. But that's not the case here - human ingenuity gave you that weapon and human conscientiousness can take it away.

Unless you personally know how to (and can) make a gun, that is. That would be the exception but, generally, if you're relying on something that someone else invented then you don't automatically have a "right" to own it.

---

There seems to be the assumption that those on the anti-gun side of the argument are under the impression that "guns kill people". We all know that it is the mentally disturbed individual on the other end of it that's the problem. We KNOW that.

Kamey, you mentioned that there will always be assaults and violent acts and that's EXACTLY the point - it's about the strength of weapons available to those committing the assault. You can defend yourself against a knife attack (and I learned how, aged 11 in Karate lessons) but there's virtually no hope against a gun.

So if there will ALWAYS be assaults on innocent people, isn't it ethical to at least attempt some form of damage limitation by not making it so one-sided?

I'd have no problem with either of these things, honestly!

On the % thing, I was making an entirely different point in that attempting to do something about it rather than doing nothing has at least AN effect, but I agree - in principle - that one rule for all weapons should be in place.

But the difficulty there (and what plays into my previous post to kamey about the "right" to own a gun) is that a knife and similar weapons are basically just a sharp object, an example of which you can easily find in nature, whereas projectile weapons are not.

I dont expect you to understand the positive effects that our gun reform has had here. I dont. Honestly.

So having five guns is ok? You have ignored the stats that I quoted - over 10,000 deaths caused by a gun in the US with very close to zero happening in Australia

Ok, we have mentally ill people here too. Preaching to the converted. I am actually on that boat myself. We also have a VERY awesome health system that *tries* to accommodate to our needs. Sadly, I know the US does not have this. It is a true tragedy and I do agree, mental health NEEDS to be looked at.

I was merely putting forth my opinion backed up with fact. We dont live in fear, we dont need to pull a weapon that was designed to kill at any time. And speak to just about any Aussie and you will probably hear the same thing.

I feel saddened that the logic of the situation isnt being recognized. Yes. Mental health is a massive issue. HOWEVER if mentally ill folk didnt have access to weapons like guns then surely mass killings like has happened so often in the US wouldnt happen? And remember too - not ALL mentally ill folk would EVER consider picking up a weapon to hurt another soul.

My personal beliefs (along with many in Au) is that guns are horrible killing machines and the general populous should not have one. Its just the way it is. I dont need to be *responsible* because I would never hold one.

AMEN! Could not have said it better